Enjoying the mod so far, excellent work. I thought I read somewhere that directional combat for ranged attacks has been added? I don’t have a numpad on my keyboard, does it require a numpad to work? I don’t know if there is a new system for “targeting” attacks?

Hi Nick,

Glad to hear you are enjoying it so far. Regarding directional combat: diagonal attacks are supported. However, directional combat for ranged attacks, like Ultima V, are not supported.

For diagonal attacks you must use a numpad. I don’t have a numpad myself, but I believe many DOS emulators include a ‘simulation’ option for that.

Hello. Excellent work! I would like to know if there is any way to keep the original graphics and also have music playing. If I use the Ultima Patcher for the music, I’m forced to use either the more colourful graphics (EGA) or the more enhanced graphics (VGA) that are just fine but I prefer the original graphics.

You can’t use the patcher. Even if it appears to work, (which might be possible) the game will be destroyed, as the graphics no longer match 1-1 with Ultima IV. The graphics driver for the game is changed too, so it is not even just a simple matter of changing the graphics images.

As for the music, you must either play it yourself in the background, or hope someone adapts the music patch for Trinity. I did try to add the music into the game itself, but it required too much code space, and would have meant cutting dozens of featuress, if not more.

I may have a place for you to do prints for manuals… you can do 1 offs, and you can even setup a POD store.

https://mixam.com/

I used them to do my digitally recreated from scratch reproductions for the Ultima Manuals.

Wow. ‘nuff said!

@Matchstick Dragon - thanks for the link. Question: Are these print-on-demand quality, or actual proper printing? The best deal I had lined up was 250 min print run, and included gold embossing, and textured, thick paper, which would match or improve upon the quality of the original Spellbook. Needless to say, it was not cheap, and the cost per book was high (but not craaazy)

Thank you so much for Trinity, this is like a great-great-great grandfather is back walking around having learned from all the games of its children. And its FUN :)

Have you a preferred DOS Emulator? I am using DOSBox for lack of anything better.
I put together this rather lame How-To because some people need the confidence of a guide when they start fiddling .bat’s https://www.reddit.com/r/Ultima/comments/1niy6ga/ultima_iv_trinity_on_dosbox_with_one_double_click/

Your Download instructions are delightfully brief - I wonder if a quick before (GoG/disks) and after (Emulator setup) would make it more accessible.

Do you have a Discord or Reddit we can discuss class builds, (spoiler tagged) discoveries, etc. ?

Why did you replace the graphics with the more primitive Apple II graphics?

@Sam - I’m very glad to hear you are enjoying it and I do like your analogy.

I am on macOS, so I use ‘Boxer’ - the ‘active’ fork, which can be found here: https://github.com/MaddTheSane/Boxer

I didn’t bother to make a pre-packged version, simply because there are so many emulators out there, and forcing people to use one version would have added its own problems. I figure that if you have an interest in playing Threat of the Trinity you must have some knowledge of emulators and setting up/dabbling with old games. I also think that many emulators do a pretty good job of making things easy these days.

Thanks for giving those who can’t a help with your write up! If one more Ultima IV fan gets to try it out, it is a win in my book!

I am not much of social media guy - I have none actually - I pop in here, and a forum or two at times. Maybe I should make a forum If the comments on this page get too voluminous…?

@Redd - I switched not only the graphics, but the overall gameplay as well to an apple II mode - I explained it here, years back: here

I am a bit tongue in cheek there, but further reasons are that Trinity is meant to be a 1986 ‘what if’ i.e. what if we had an add-on for Ultima IV in 1986 - The DOS port did not come along for a year or two after that, so I tried to ‘pretend’ this was written on/for Apple II.

Additionally I think the art for the Apple II is a brilliant example of ‘making the best of the limitations we have’, whereas the DOS version is a bit of a ‘color splurge’.

Perhaps I will release a full DOS graphical version one day. For now we have to enjoy it close to how it was enjoyed 40 years ago - on an Apple II.

In every version of Ultima IV I have played, I could use the sling up close. But now, if an enemy gets too close, I am unable to use the sling. Is there any way to fix this? I’m a Bard sling/bow main normally.

Hi Possum Power - sorry, but that is a feature. Using ranged weapons in hand-to-hand combat is removed. You will need to set your ranged fighters back behind melee PCs or obstacles, and/or equip a melee weapon when the enemy closes.

There are a lot of other small changes like this that will require players to adjust their strategies.

@Cambragol You can contact me directly or on the UDIC Discord. And I can share some stuff, and not have to have a back and forth here.

Thanks for your reply, I have a couple more questions.

1) The runes have been moved? for example the NPC’s tell me the location but when I search that location the runes are not there? .. is there a new way to reveal the runes?

2) at one point in original Ultima IV i am required to cast the ‘dispell’ spell to reveal a pressure plate to open the hidden passage. I am now not able to dispell the lightning fields required. Is this a bug?

Hi Nick,

I’ll answer your questions straight away. Good questions.

1.) Some runes have been moved (quite a few). All quests and hints should point to the new locations. Some are a slight change, others are more involved. Is there a specific rune you are having trouble with?

2) Dispel works in towns and dungeons. There are no ‘pressure plates’ in Ultima IV - can you be more specific about this?

I was being a bit vague as worried about spoilers for anyone who doesn’t already know how to complete the game, however, I guess it is a 40 year old game now:

1) lets take the ‘ rune of compassion’. Sprite says talk to pepper. Pepper says its at the end of hall. I search here (same spot as in vanilla ultima IV). it’s not there. I go upstairs and talk to another NPC who also mentions he saw it down the hall. I search all along the hall, cannot find it.

2) to get the green stone in dungeon wrong, on level 8 you have a dungeon room where there are lightning fields. casting dispell no longer removes the fields so i cannot stand at the required location (what i referred to as pressure plates) to reveal the hidden passage. Cannot get the green stone. Interestingly, when i cast my own energy lightning field using magic, I am able to dispell this field, just not the field that already is present in the room and the one required as part of the questline.

Sorry Nick,

My mistake, I should have realized you meant pressure plates in dungeon rooms. Duh.

Well, I should have known better than to make last second changes. And this was one of them. This is a bug, one it looks like I added as a last minute ‘fix’ to energy/dispel spell. Should have known better. Argh.

Well, thank you for pointing it out. I have fixed it and it is included in the download link already. You can grab it, and just copy over avatar.exe to make things right.

As for the other issue, the rune is at the end of a hall. I can say no more.

Thanks again for your detailed feedback. I appreciate it very much.

Thank you! I thought this might of been a bug. also I did encounter another weird bug when I entered into the ‘Active Player’ mode. One time for some reason it began controlling TWO of my characters both moving according to the key input, both characters at different X,Y co-ordinates. I am not sure how to reproduce this, as it only happened to me once. The other times I have used ‘Active Player it has been fine.

Interesting, regarding rune. I might need to broaden my search outside of the city of Britain then? As I have searched all the halls of all the buildings and floors in that city (above weapon and armour shop too, which i figured was where I should be looking.)

Found rune ;-).. fun.

Loving this! I noticed that the sextant appears not to be working in towns, etc. (anywhere but the main outdoor map). I was in Vesper (D’L” M’J” on the main map) and everywhere inside the village has the same coordinates…

Hi, just downloaded this, but after starting it just says “No active game!”

@Nick - Good to hear you found the Rune! That was one of the easier re-locations. As for the Active Player bug - very weird. That was bug tested to death, and no bug-tester ever reported such an effect. I’ve never seen anything like that myself. Let’s hope it is a one-off and doesn’t show up again. (certainly do let me know if it does)

@MrKnitster - Hey! An Avatar! - That is a feature/bug fix. The sextant is scaled to the outdoor world, where one space is one letter. So it holds that in a town it would register the coordinate of that town.

@Adamantyr - to start the game you must run ‘ultima’ (ultima.com) - It sounds like you are trying to start the game with ‘avatar.exe’ `

@Cambragol - Glad this is out there being enjoyed! I wonder about the sextant… It measures latitude and longitude, so would it be possible to add ‘’’ to towns? In other words, within Vesper, readings could be D′L″A‴ M′J″A‴, D′L″B‴ M′J″B‴, etc.? It’s helpful sometimes to know where you are in a town or to make a note of where you found something for future reference. Might be too much code space, however…

Found another tiny weird thing as well. Searching somewhere for free armor, instead of finding “CHAIN” or “LEATHER” I found “LORD BRITISH”. Nothing was added to my inventory. Not sure what on earth happened there. Don’t want to spoil it, but can let you know where this happened if it helps.

I thought about that for the sextant, but it would be a lot of code for almost no benefit. There are no cases where an object is located via sextant coordinates in a town. It could have worked though, if added muuuuch earlier on, during the dialogue/quest building process.

That other little bug does sound very weird - maybe let me know the details on the old bug reporting github forum. I’ll look into it right now.

I was running ultima.com, but I fixed it by running title.exe which created a proper save that then worked with it.

Found a bug, I think. Was looking for the Rune of Valor in Jhelom, noticed it wasn’t in the usual spot. Then I saw in the NE tower a ladder going down. But when I try to descend it dumps back to the DOS prompt in a weird fashion.

Ran into a bug in Jhelom. When attempting to go down the north east ladder in the town wall, I am getting kicked out of the game and sent back to the dos box prompt.

@Adamantyr and @Brandon - thanks for the report. Sorry for the issue. It looks like a town map did not get copied into the release - not sure why or how - nevertheless here is the file - Jhelom basement just drop that into your install folder and you are on your way.

I will add it as a hotfix shortly.

Thanks a lot guys!

Thanks! I felt like that was the issue, a missing map.

Also, I was a bit frustrated trying to find the new places to go in the game, so I went ahead and wrote a map extractor/creator to create PNG’s of all the maps using the in-game graphics. You probably have your own set, but if you want I’ll send them to you. :)

“A bit frustrated trying to find the new places…” - What!? Exploration and discovery is one of the core gameplay elements! Well, to each their own I guess. It’s a big expansion.

Thanks for the offer, but I think I have everything memorized. I’m sure that eventually people will want them though. Maybe as part of a cheat/hint/quest guide. In that case perhaps you could slide those along… My email is on the footer.

I’m still a little perplexed by Ultima.com not working for you. I feel like some errors may be the result of different DOS implementations.

Not sure if this is a bug. Casting gate spell in the underdeep gates the party into a cliff-face and instantly kills everyone.

@Nick - that is the correct behavior - The gate spell takes you to the lat/long of the moongate, several hundred meters below the surface. So you merge with solid stone.

Though, it might make more sense if the magic sent you to the actual location of the moongate…

Moongates magic only work on a two-dimensional plane? There is no concept of a Z-axis? Interesting..

I wonder if having the spell fizzle could be another ‘realistic’ feature, since you are too far hidden from the moons?

Failure of the spell is a good, clean alternative to teleporting you into solid stone. The moons are ‘absent’ after all when in the Underdeep.

I find it appealing though to imagine a desperate venture into the deeps, culminating in the party surrounded by beasts, closing in all sides, party members injured or dead - and at the last moment - the mage of the party gates everyone out of there.

@ADAMANTYR–I would love a set of maps! I would probably play through once completely to enjoy the surprises, but a set of reference maps afterwards would be great…

And also, @CAMBRAGOL, it would be great to have a hint guide from you for the same reason–after playing through completely, I’d love to see what I missed!

@Cambragol Dropped you an email!

@Mrknitster Sure, just shoot me an email to adamantyr@gmail.com

Also, I think there is a missing ladder on the 2nd level of Dwimmerstone. (My maps helped me find that.)

Wow… almost 180 maps. Thats more than 10x more than vanilla Ultima IV. Didn’t realise it had gone that far.

@Adamantyr - nice work on those. They’ll have to be part of some quest guide at some point. Regarding Dwimmerstone - no missing stair that I can see. There are ‘hidden’ stairs though…

I see! That said, at what point did you add a hint that you may have to search for hidden stairs? Just sayin… ;)

@Adamantyr - there are a number of characters that introduce the concept as a gameplay element/addition - after that the clues are always there, but must be inferred from conversations or visual cues.

Unlike ‘secret doors’, ladders lack a direct visual cue, so need ‘hints’.

@Adamantyr Thank you! I dropped you an email. Looking forward to viewing the maps

Curiosity: I was instructed by a weapon crafter in Trinsic to take a sample, but when I (S)earched I got something other than a weapon. It seems to be spell Q, but if so, said spell doesn’t appear in my Mixtures, and I did not receive a weapon, nor anything I can (U)se.

Hi Ailuro Dragon,

That is likely another case of a small bug when searching for items, weapons, armor, keys etc. There is one other known location which suffers this bug. The bug returns a random memory location that is out of range, hence the odd result.

I have a fix for it, and will add it to a 1.01 release. I am just waiting for any other feedback before doing that.

Thanks for letting me know, and sorry about the bug. I hope you are enjoying the game.

In one of the new towns, I’ve found myself stuck in a very small magic shop with a child following me in and the door closing. Wilt I drift forever?!? Yes, I can either quit, wait until I starve to death or do something very unvirtuous, but I just thought I’d ask…

@Library Dragon — Hmm… does not sound good.

I see the town, and know the shop. It is a rare occurrence to be sure, but it has happened. It’s kind of a trap almost.

I will adjust the door way to the shop, to accommodate this scenario. I don’t know if that will help you, but it will help others.

Thanks for the heads up!

Actually, @Library Dragon, if you attached your townmap.sav file, I can probably save you.

Thanks, but I’ve already rebooted - I hadn’t really done that much since the previous save. I do have a screenshot in case you wanted to double check that we’re talking about the same place!

Sure - a screenie would be good. I did fix the location I am thinking you were in, I am just refraining from specifying for ‘spoilers’ sake. If you trim the screen just down to the shop shape I can identify it, and no one will be spoiled.

I can’t post pictures here, I think, but https://discord.com/channels/179598067379470336/179621008704012288/1426789496288186498 should help.

Loving the game, thank you so much for putting this together. The simple act of moving the runes gives off the feel that we’re playing an all-new Ultima game even though it’s just a transformation of IV. And I’m loving a lot of the dialog changes early in the game too - I’m going to have to get out my pen and paper and take notes!

I wanted to respond to an earlier comment about wanting maps. When I was 11, 12, 13 years old I enjoyed the grind and the endless hours drawing maps. At 52, however, with a full-time job and a special-needs daughter I just don’t have that kind of spare time anymore. With that said, in just a dozen or so hours of play I’ve already stumbled upon a bunch of new hamlets, castles, dungeons, and dialog that wasn’t there in base Ultima IV so I have plenty to “keep me busy” for quite awhile. With THAT said, once I have a few dozen more hours invested in the game I’m sure I’ll be at a point where I’ll appreciate maps/hints/guides/dialog transcripts etc. just so that I can review it all and make sure there’s nothing I “missed”. If there are any plans in the future of releasing such things I would be happy to assist in that effort if there’s anything I can do.

Hi DalTXColtsFan Dragon,

Very glad to hear you are enjoying the game. I’m also glad I changed the runes location. I hesitated on that for a time, but I think it was the right call in the end. Dialogues were not only tweaked here and there, but all NPCs conversations were expanded, so any NPC could have more secrets or more critical info (compared to default).

@Adamantyr has written some code to extract maps from towns, dungeons etc. He hasn’t done them all yet, but the results are pretty cool, and could certainly be brought together in a guide of some sort. The game is very big, and has many, many secrets. It is likely that even a successful, completion of the game would miss more than half the content. Hopefully that makes multiple play-throughs enjoyable, but, also, increase the need/usefulness of a guide.

As for assisting, I’m not sure of your skillset, but help is always appreciated. If Adamantyr passes along the rest of the maps, I’m sure something could be brought together here.

I also need to get on a ‘Hall of Heroes’ section on this site, to record those who have completed the game…

Hi! Been playing a lot of this, it is a tremendous undertaking. I just wanted to check and see if something was possibly bugged: I am a 7-part Avatar, but my Humility has not changed (or rather, since I can’t check the underlying number, I can just say that Hawkwind’s response about Humility hasn’t changed) in the last 20 or so hours of play. A twitch streamer that I watch who is also playing has the same issue (and in his case, with Honor as well, which is odd because Honor was the second virtue I completed). I am told that you made some changes that removed some of the common speedrunning strats for raising Humility, and I worry that it might be possible to wind up in a position where it’s not possible to raise it fully. There’s one question in specific that we’re curious about: does typing in a keyword rather than your name when an NPC prompts you for your name (because you’ve started a conversation and just started typing on autopilot, perhaps) slightly ding your Humility? Thanks!

Happy to provide the maps to anyone who wants them, just drop me an email!

I think I may have found a bug. Using Rot13 for spoiler coverage:

Sbyybjvat gur genvy bs gur jnaq, jura V sbhaq byq Oylr, ur zragvbaf n Fgenvg ohg gura jba’g fnl jurer vg vf. Gur bayl jnl gb trg uvz gb gryy lbh vg’f ng gur gvc bs gur qnttre (nxn Qnttre Vfyr) vf gb hfr gur xrljbeq RAVT. Juvpu ur arire fnlf, abe qbrf nalbar ryfr va gur pbhefr bs gur uhag. V unq gb urk-rqvg gur GYX svyr gb svther vg bhg.

@Goldenflame - very glad to hear you are playing, and hopefully enjoying, the game.

You are correct in assuming that ‘speedrunning’ or ‘spamming’ virtue increases does not work. I took a tremendous amount of care crafting a new system that should, prevent any unrealistic spamming of virtues. It will not work, in any case. Except maybe combat.. but that’s not really spamming. Further, there are more ways to increase your virtues (and they too are spam proof - I hope).

What there is NOT is new ways to lower your virtue. So, for example, making a mistake with your name will NOT lower a virtue. However… watch how you do speak, as you could ‘prevent’ an increase to your virtue. Just be virtuous, and you will be fine.

This, overall, will prevent any ‘quick’ avatarhood. It will take time, but should be no issue if you proceed with virtue.

I do have a new version I am preparing, based off this comment thread’s feedback. It will be a 1.01 version, and, short of critical bugs, I will not change anything after that.

In anycase, this new version has adjustments from default about Hawkwinds feedback. Unfortunately, the default/vanilla feedback is not effective for virtuous players/old-hands, because it starts at 50-65, and there is no feedback step between there, and avatarhood. So you spend the whole game with ZERO change in the feedback from Hawkwind. When we first played Ultima IV, we all messed up our virtues, as we learned how this happened, then slowly adapted virtuous behavior which allowed our bottomed out virtue to rise up through pre-set feedback levels. This is missed when you start at 60 and just start acting virtuous immediately.

So, in the next (final) update, your virtue feedback will have more informative feedback ranges (no new feedback though) and rest assured that messing up your name causes you no karma hit.

@Adamantyr - thanks for the offer on the maps. I certainly want them, as I am likely to make some kind of hint/guide with them, if someone else doesn’t first.

As for the bug? No! Not a bug! You need the feelies!! The map is critical, hence why I included it. Learn the place names….

P.S. guys … the answer to the spam test is ‘honesty’ - lowercase. I’ve been correcting a good percent of the posts. Good thing everyone is replaying the game… Hahaha

I just got told to seek elevation in Humility, so I think I figured out what you made your trigger for allowing raises in Humility. I think it makes sense, and withdraw my suggestion of there being a bug here. (Still not sure what’s up with my friend’s Honor, but, mine at least was fine!)

“What there is NOT is new ways to lower your virtue.”

Not technically true, in as much using the Wand or Disc is not exactly good for your virtue… but true enough, since that’s not really a new phenomenon but rather applying an existing one to new things. :)

Well, don’t think too hard about the trigger. Just be virtuous!

Honor is a virtue that is found in multiple ‘multi’ virtue punishments. I.e. it goes down along with 2 other virtues (different ones) in at least 3 places. So, it is bound to be lower than others if mistakes were made in several places.

You are right about the wand/disc too. It is a new way, but really is an application of an existing pattern. I know you want to use them though…

Unfortunately, this one is looking like a genuine bug. I became a full Avatar, grabbed the mystics. I then headed into Despise to start picking up stones. (Yes, I made it to L8 and full avatar without entering a dungeon. There’s so much more stuff to do on the surface now!) While exploring Despise I noticed that my ankh was incomplete. I had apparently without noticing it lost an eighth. What’s weird is that when I left the dungeon and went to Hawkwind, he reported that I was ready for elevation in Justice. (This confused me at first but I’m pretty sure I regained the necessary points in Justice by fleeing from non-evil monsters in the dungeon.)

There’s a bunch of weird things here. One, as far as I know, there is nothing that lowers Justice that doesn’t also lower another virtue, so I don’t know of a way to lose an eighth just in Justice. Two, when I went to the Shrine of Justice and meditated for 3 cycles… it gave me one of the messages about how to be Just rather than elevating me to avatarhood. Actually, I just tested that again. I can’t confirm that this is a problem generally, but in this case at the least, if I meditate for 3 cycles while the effect of the Ring is active (which comes up for this shrine but not any of the others, mostly), the shrine gives me a vision about Justice; if I meditate for 3 cycles without having the ring active, I become an Avatar again. So that at the least is a bug, and I am still bewildered as to what lowered my Justice without lowering anything else but maybe I don’t know the possibilities there as well as I thought.

Also I’m sorry- I should have thought to make a save outside the shrine of justice with that slice missing so I could send you the save and you could test with and without the ring, but I was so excited to regain avatarhood that I hit Q out of pure muscle memory.

Followup on the previous comment: I lost Justice again, in the Spider Cave. The trigger has not been reliable- I am trying to create a saved game I can send that reliably reproduces. One time I’m pretty sure it happened when I descended from L2 to L3, but this time doing that didn’t trigger anything, so I am not yet sure. But there looks to be a bug somewhere in dungeons that triggers Justice loss. I would be happy to let you know if I find a reliable trigger, and send over a save when I do.

I cannot make it happen reliably yet, but I have narrowed it down to Using the Map. It is very unpredictable, I’ve done a specific sequence of things, had it happen, restored a save, and tried to generate a save closer to the event and the event won’t happen. But I have absolutely seen myself Use the Map while in the Spider Cave, have been a full avatar when I started, and have lost the Justice line in the Ankh specifically after I hit a key to dismiss the map/peer view. I do not believe that it reports “Thou hast lost an eighth”- I just lose it. If I am able to create a save file that reliably reproduces the bug I will of course share it, but there seems to be an element of randomness that is making that very challenging. But who knows, maybe this will be enough to let you find it. In the meantime, by saving often and making backup save files, I can continue playing.

I apologize for spamming your feedback form, but this one does feel important enough to get in your queue before you release the final version.

Hi Goldenflame - this is certainly a bug, as this is the second report about Justice lowering arbitrarily and quietly after becoming an Avatar.

‘One, as far as I know, there is nothing that lowers Justice that doesn’t also lower another virtue, so I don’t know of a way to lose an eighth just in Justice.’ You are correct here, as there is nothing that lowers Justice on its own. Justice is always lowered along with other virtues. The lowering code is untouched from vanilla. Fenyx and I were looking at a possible bug in the original code, but I still don’t think it could be possible for the situation you encountered.

Absolutely, please do send any save over and let me know of any other surrounding info, as this seems to be a legitimate bug that needs to be fixed asap.

Exact details of your actions near the event help, as there is a possibility that this is some kind of memory overflow from some other function. There is a slight possibility that it is platform specific (i.e. the dos emulator) but that is less likely now. What dos emulator are you using?

No apologies about spamming - important info and this is the place.

Your clue about the ‘map’ is good - I had already narrowed it down to it as a possibility - still don’t know how. I am going to focus my hunt here.

I am on Win 10, using a GOG install of U4 which appears to use DOSBox 0.74-2.1.

I have put a couple hours into it so far but haven’t managed to create a reproducible test case. (I worry a little that the act of saving might clear whatever bit causes the bug to trigger, but have no data either way.) I have seen it happen enough times now though that there does seem to be one commonality: it happens sometimes (only sometimes!) if I (U)se the Map immediately following a fight. It’s happened several times if I Use the Map as soon as I’ve come out of the central spider room on L2 or the slime room on L3 of the Spider Cave. I think I’ve seen it happen after Using the Map following a random hallway fight but I am less certain that I’ve seen that case. I’ll keep watching for it. I am also not sure if I have ever seen it not immediately after a fight- I will also keep watching for that. But this would be consistent with the fact that I did not ever see the bug while using the Map in towns.

One thing that I did test, though is: last time I had it happen, I immediately X-ited the dungeon and Gate Traveled back to LBC. Hawkwind told me to seek elevation, which means my actual karma level in Justice is not going down, it is only losing the fact that I have attained partial avatarhood.

I will continue to test- I’ve been on your side of this and know how nice a reproducible test case is! And I feel like I’m getting closer to better data.

Still no save file, but I had it happen after getting out of a floor fight with ghosts, getting the chest, and then Using the Map. The chest can’t be a necessary prerequisite for the bug, as it isn’t a factor when I’m leaving a room, but it’s interesting to know that the bug can happen even if it’s a turn or two after the fight ended. And it’s very good to know that it is not actually linked to rooms.

I ran around saving after every fight for a dozen fights, and then the next fight there I DIDN’T save after, the bug triggered. That is way too small a sample size to say saving makes the bug not happen, but it’s either that or very aggravating timing.

All good data Goldenflame Dragon - I’m trying to repeat your cases now.

Quick question - do you use an extended keyboard?

@Goldenflame Dragon - following your guidance, I have finally seen this bug happen. I was able to immediately save and open the file, showing that the cause is most likely a memory overflow from somewhere. Tracking that down is still tricky, but the map is clearly a culprit.

If I can’t track it down and fix the memory leak, I will look at a bandaid solution, which I already have in mind. Failing that, I would likely have to cut the map.

Keep any info coming though, as I haven’t licked it yet. But getting closer.

Thanks for all your help!

If by an extended keyboard you mean one with a numpad, yes, I do. And of course combat is exclusively where I actually make use of the numpad, so that’s a good thought. I’ll keep watching for it and trying to narrow down what I did or didn’t do in any given fight.

A note to anyone else who might try to track down bugs in this fashion- just backing up PARTY.SAV is insufficient. I was juggling PARTY.SAV files in my testing, and when I got back to playing, my horse and all my boats had disappeared from the world map…

So, back up your entire game folder instead. :P

Other minor bugs/issues from my time looking into this one:

• Just wanted to point again at the Ring/Shrine issue I posted above: having the Ring active prevented the Shrine of Justice from seeing that I was eligible for elevation
• In caves there are some rooms where monsters spawn on rocks (making them invulnerable until they move) or, in one case in Dewmire, on the same space as a party member. Not that big a deal, but maybe worth mentioning.
• Talking to Asher in Dwimmerstone, he asks if I’ve found any Orbs of the Moons. I haven’t found any in the Underdeep yet, but I found the one that is in a very logical place if you’ve played Ultima V, so I answered “YES”, and immediately lost my eighth in Humility. I don’t know (a) why this would be Humility rather than Honesty, and (b) why I lose an eighth when I answer correctly that I have, in fact, found an Orb.

I’ve been experimenting with talking to people diagonally and seeing if I can trigger the Map/Justice bug, but so far it hasn’t worked.

@Goldenflame - I have found and fixed the bug.

Thanks for your help - it was critical. It was a very very tricky bug - hardest one yet to crack, as it was so random, rare, and almost irreproducible. But I managed to get a save 2 steps before the loss of a justice eighth. This allowed me to attack it again and again, step by step dissecting what was wrong. The solution also may explain other instances of this issue.

So, a fix for this will be in 1.01 - yay!

If you have any specific rooms in dewmire that you can point out I will fix those. This was tested pretty thoroughly in the beta, so surprised that there still are any monster/stone/npc overlaps.

I will check Asher - I doubt he should be docking your humility.

The ring issue is strange - another rare thing, but I will check/fix it.

Also, I have improved the ‘erasing’ logic of the original game when it comes to overland chests/horse/boats etc., but if you leave them lying around, they will eventually disappear (which is realistic I think)

So happy you got the Map bug fixed! In particular, happy that neither of us needs to keep trying to find a test case for it! Congratulations.

On the erasing logic: I did just get a boat, sail it somewhere, get out to visit Dwimmerstone, and the boat was gone when I emerged. But I cannot rule out a whirlpool being a jerk in that case. But that was my replacement boat after I left a cave, my horse was there, and then I reloaded after doing a bunch of save game shenanigans for testing, and the horse and every single one of my 7 or 8 boats had all disappeared at once. I’ve been operating under the assumption that things on the overland are stored in a different .SAV file than PARTY.SAV and that I, in my test juggling, managed to clobber my own boats, but I dunno. In any case, I’ve managed to get a boat again after my new boat’s disappearance, so hopefully it won’t come up again. (I assume your new erasing logic deletes things individually as they go unused?) If it happens to me again I will post about it just in case there is an issue with frequency, but, I hadn’t had any problems until I spent an evening mucking about for testing, so I feel like most people aren’t going to be having any problems here.

I’m afraid I can’t specify a room in Dewmire- I was watching a twitch streamer play when that one came up. It was on one of the lower levels and there was a lake, and I came back to my computer to hear him comment that one of the slimes (I think it was slimes?) had started underneath Shamino. But I can say that the slime room on L3 of Spider Cave has one slime that starts out standing on a rock, adjacent, to the south IIRC, to your front-right-most party member (assuming a party of 8). (The streamer also said he had seen a lava lizard step onto a space occupied by another lava lizard and stack up there, but this is not something I have seen happen first hand.)

But to bring it back around to the top, I’m dancing a jig that you fixed that bug. All of my coding is very modern so debugging that kind of memory bug is pure sorcery to me. I mean, the whole mod is, really. Take care!

@Goldenflame Dragon

I think the ring/shrine issue was very likely linked to the overall justice bug. The bug was giving the justice Karma a random number, which would appear to be ‘ready for elevation’, but when at the shrine, is NOT 99 - the number required. Periodically the karma ‘watching’ functions will update your karma based off previous actions (delayed boosts) and/or restore a value past 99, to 99.

So it may have appeared that the ring was preventing the elevation, when really it was just the corrupted karma value for Justice.

That is my working theory, as I am able to elevate while the ring is in use now.

That makes sense to me. Glad it doesn’t seem to be something more pernicious.

@Goldenflame Dragon -

Regarding overworld ships/horses/chests disappearing - the logic will erase chests first, then horses and ships. However, there isn’t, nor has there ever been, much room for storing things in the world space. Honestly, it should all disappear once you leave it. So I am happy with the balance now, which is close to vanilla - less room for objects, but a smarter (non-random) erasing.

Your things will disappear, so don’t be surprised when they do!

I will venture in to Dewmire and SpiderCave now - must these dungeons were all made in pure hex, so never easy to visualize things.

Also, Asher is fixed - had a byte set wrong.

I should note that the bug-testers did a great job. They tested the heck out of the game - however, the game is so big that more than half the content was never even reached by them, and they were trying! So, I think the issues have been relatively minor so far. To my relief.

Please try to enjoy the game from here.

Oh, please don’t think that my reports here are me thinking the game was not well tested! I’m in beta on my own game, I know how much there can be to fix and how many little things you can miss. (My “to fix/alter” list is over 100 entries long after just 5 testers.) This map/Justice thing was rare and subtle, slimes starting on rocks is incredibly minor, and having to work under the constraints of U4’s design is its own whole thing. I just figure I should point out as much as I can while you’re still working on it! And trust me, if the game didn’t have its hooks in me I wouldn’t have cared enough to be posting here.

By the way, I ran into the map/Justice thing again, and this time I decided to just keep going and get Justice back, and in doing so I confirmed that the Ring has nothing to do with the shrine not elevating you. I went to the shrine without the Ring active, and it didn’t elevate. I went to Hawkwind, he said to seek elevation, and then I went to the shrine, and it still didn’t elevate. So I went to Paws and bought a tiny amount of reagents just to do something that would modify my Justice karma… and the next time I went to the shrine, I was elevated. All of this is entirely consistent with what you thought was happening- it worked as soon as something firmly set the number properly.

I did run into one other NPC where it was possible to lose virtue when I am not sure it was intended, but this one seemed plausible. In the Rogue King’s lair is the guy who is injured, and said he attacked a group led by someone wearing an ankh. He then says, “was that you?” I said “YES” and lost my eighth in Humility. It’s plausible that this was intended to sound like I was proud of it/boasting and so deserved the loss, but just in case it wasn’t intended I thought I’d mention it.

So let me say, thank you for this excuse to once more fully explore this era of Britannia. Take care and walk in virtue. :)

I just download today. Happy to meet ultima4 like this. I send my thanks from Korea.

@Sanghoon Lee - Thank you, I’m glad you found the game, and I hope you enjoy it! There will be a final 1.01 release in a few days, so check back in. Spread the word to Ultima fans in Korea!

@Several Dragons - I don’t do Discord, so I can’t meet/communicate with you there. For now, here is the place, or through my email below.

@Cambragol I am certainly enjoying the game as I am able. Seeing the much more serious bug(s) relating to virtue and some new tools, I’m pleased to see my little guy squashed along with the big ones. When you release 1.01, let us know if saves will be compatible and/or little oops items that were missed can/will be reset? [No fuss for me if not; I’m not so far into the game that I couldn’t start over.]

@Ailuro Dragon - I have all the bugs, big and small, fixed already in a 1.01 version that is ready to go.

I am only waiting for last minute feedback for any ‘features’ or ‘balances’ - if you speak up, you will likely be heard, or at least considered, before I set it it stone for all time (bar some kind of critical bug - none so far fortunately)

The save games will be 100% compatible with the final version (and with good old default Ultima IV) - of course if you loaded a save into Ultima IV you would lose everything gained related to Trinity.

I think the most noticeable change in 1.01 will be reduced spawns. They were set at default Apple II levels, which is higher than I should like. The expanded/extended game requires the leveling/xp gain to be spread out a little, so things will be toned down. Your actions in game will also greatly impact the scourge of evil monsters that plagues the lands (this is already the case).

So stay tuned, and pass along any feedback you think could be constructive.

Hello All,

I have updated Threat of the Trinity to version 1.01 - hopefully this will be the final and flawless edition. All points in this thread have been fixed/addressed, and more besides. Save games are compatible. To update, just gather all your *.sav files, Download and install the new version, then restore/copy all the saved *.sav files into the install. That should be it.

Enjoy!